So explain to me... (Part one)

[laligin]

In a desperate attempt to improve my Torchwood-writing, and because I have a fanfic100 claim on the entire Torchwood team, not just those members I like/understand/have a million plot ideas for, I'm asking you for help.

Explain to me, please, as politely as you can manage (I'm not here for a fight), exactly why Gwen is a good/useful/likeable character.

Because I don't quite get it. Up to... oh... about Small Worlds (episode 5) I quite liked her. Beyond that...

So, anyway. Gwen fans. I need you to tell me why she's a vital part of the team, and why I'd actually enjoy writing her if I got it right, so I can stop coming up with excuses for her absence in my fic. (Seriously. I don't really give her a starring role (or even a mildly vital role) at any point. I feel guilty.)

Help?

(Also, convince me Jack/Gwen can work.)

Comments

[aruja.livejournal.com]

alright so I'm probably not exactly a fan so much as I am anti-anti-Gwen (really, what is the reason for so much hate?)

for me, with her characterization it was always a "everyman" theme. she is the one with whom the viewers are discovering the world through Torchwood's eyes.

so she is really supposed to be, IMHO, the most "normal" and there for she has a standard heroine's set of character traits; caring, curiosity, concern for the wellbeing of others, etc. and I think this is where people stop and claim she is boring or Mary-Sueish but she is also able to enter into the grey spaces. like sleeping with Owen, or retconning Rys(sp?) even after she knew of the long term effects.
I suppose this paints her as kind of self-interested, the major examples of things that she does that are on the darker side are for herself.
maybe it's just me, but I think it gives a deep enough view of her character that it keeps me interested.
I'll seriously be dissappointed if they don't explore more with her greyer side in S2... because I can't see her character developing any more if they don't. There isn't anything left in just being happy couple with her bf and just going to work everyday.

the police style that she brought in kind of faded away, I really liked the profiling from "day one" but it just went away, we are not really shown that she stopped doing it, but we don't see it. so I'm sure that that kind of work, that helped them find Cherys and where she was before she went ratjam in ep2, is certainly something she brings to the team.
along with a kind of sensitivity dealing with normal people that she got being police that the others can't quite manage because they don't have an interest in normal people unless they have something abnormal about them. and sometimes normal people are the keys to what is going on(Bernie, Eugene, etc).

okay that was probably way more vague than I intended(and probably than you wanted), but I can't seem to word it any better so, sorry.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

(I try my best not to be anti-Gwen, but I can't help feeling she was overused and occasionally badly written throughout the series. That's why I'm trying to get fans to bring me back round. :) )

I did like the police elements she brought to Torchwood, you're right. Unfortunately, as you say, they vanished without a trace. That is a point in her favour, though, and something I can try playing with next time I write her. Thanks.

The irony here is that what makes her "deeper" and more interesting for some (the grey area of her character) comes across to me as revealing a shallow, self-centred personality. I'd be very interested in exploring her darker side in Series 2, as long as it's well-written and has some element of her trying to fight it and go back to the way she was when she first came to Torchwood - when her ideas of right and wrong were a lot clearer and she hadn't compromised her own arguments. If she tries to sort herself out that could be quite fascinating.

Also something I shall have to play with. :)

Thank you indeed. (Maybe more vague than you intended, but still enough to give me a couple of things to think about. ^_^)

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. I myself am a bit ambivalent about Gwen. She bothers me a little but I see exactly why she is needed in the series, as amethyst_bjd said she is the one who the audience discovers Torchwood through.

I also think she had potential to become more interesting next season because she started off as the perfect good character, the one who cares the most about the people involved and wanted to try very hard. However, further into the season we saw her doing things for her own selfish needs (the thing with Rhys, sleeping with Owen even after the Tosh event, helping to open the rift). I think this turn toward the dark which brings out the selfishness in her is an interesting thing. It shows she is changing and that she is not perfect. It gives her some flaws that can be explored further. Perhaps this selfish side that comes out in her now in then will backfire on her somehow or that gray area in her morals will become a bigger problem for her.

Any way the series goes with her I think there is interest in her flaws and her becoming aware that she has these flaws. I also would be interested to see her role in Torchwood further defined since it's sort of up in the air right now as to what her area of expertise is. The police thing is mostly gone as you said and not it's sort of like she is Jack lite. But anyhow, that's just a personal thing.

In sum I think Gwen in important because she started as the innocent heroine whom the audience connects to and now her personality and morals are taking a dig into the gray sphere which could make for some interesting plots and further growth next season.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

Perhaps this selfish side that comes out in her now in then will backfire on her somehow

If that had happened in series one I probably wouldn't have turned against her so much. As it stands, she gets away with just about everything. Compare Ianto, Tosh and Owen, who all had their lives ruined by their mistakes, and who all came very close to dying. Gwen, on the contrary, although in peril every other episode, winds up with very little in the way of consequences for her actions. Rhys remains oblivious, everyone else forgives/forgets/moves on, and she carries on just has she has from the start.

She does have potential - not as much as Ianto and Tosh, I think, because they were woefully underused, but still some.

Still, that does mean I could try playing around with her "becoming aware that she has these flaws", as you put it. (And shadowbyrd tells me I should write something like that. :) ) Food for thought, at least. Thanks.

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

Oh heck yeah I agree. I think Ianto and Tosh are ten times more interesting than Gwen but ah well we don't write hte show. I really hope Ianto and Tosh get more screen time next season. And by screen time I don't mean just their one episode of the season dedicated them and then lets go back to Gwen, oh no. How about they all share!

[laligin.livejournal.com]

How about they all share!

A novel idea that doesn't seem to have occurred to the writers. *pout*

;)

[donutsweeper.livejournal.com]

I wish I could help you on this one, but I just can't. Like you, Small Worlds caused me to really start to dislike her character and it just got worse. By EOD I wanted to smack her.

That said, I think it would be easy to use her in fic to be the one doing the actual police work- interviewing (even if "off camera") or working with the local cops, etc.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

From Small Worlds onwards, every time Gwen was in danger I started wishing she'd let someone else be the damsel in distress for once. She never really did.

I think I did that with her in fic once or twice. But there's not always a lot of call for it if there's an artefact in the Hub and everyone else is doing something productive based around it... Hm. This is the trouble with her not having a defined job. I've toyed with the idea of someone else being introduced to the Torchwood team like she was. It goes:

"This is Doctor Owen Harper. He's the medic, and deals with all the biological problems of fighting aliens on Earth. This is Toshiko Sato, mathematical genius and all kinds of tech support. This is Ianto Jones - he cleans up after us, keeps the archives in order, gets us everywhere on time and generally stops Torchwood from crashing down around our ears. And this is Gwen Cooper. She... um. Actually, Gwen, what do you do?"

"She gets us into trouble."

"That's the one, Owen, thanks."


Oh dear. There's not much hope for me being converted, is there? *wince*

[halfspokenwords.livejournal.com]

Actually, and I hope you don't mind me cutting in (this post was on my f-list, so I've been observing), that's one of the big problems I have with writing Gwen. We're not shown much of a skill set. In Everything Changes, Day One, and Random Shoes, we're shown a Gwen who brings a bit of police procedure to the team. She interviews, profiles, compiles a lot of information. That's a very useful skill, but I've never been convinced that it's what she does at Torchwood. Maybe I'm just being hard on her.

In a way, she's hurt by the fact that Tosh and Owen are so specialised-- and even Suzie worked on weapons/tech and obviously knew a lot about computers. Ianto suffers from this as well, though his lack of definition tends to imply that he does everything rather than nothing. (To me, at least. I understand that people read him differently.) They almost made Gwen too normal, too everyman. I'm not sure I 'get' why a team of alien catchers needs her--surely they functioned before she joined? If she's merely there to be the moral compass, then she should be booted off the team after Countrycide.

I have my problems with Gwen as a character (the way she seems to be forgiven everything, the way her kiss revives the dead, the way that when she finally gets around to betraying Jack, she's rewarded when both he and Rhys come back to life-- everyone else lost their romantic interest, even Jack!) (and I can't for the life of me understand why Jack tells her things he hasn't told anyone else on the team), but the above is why I find it difficult to write her into ensemble fics.

I'm not trying to Gwen-bash here, so I'm sorry if it seems that way. I don't hate her; I just don't love her. In fact, if she were just another character in an ensemble cast of flawed characters, she'd be fantastic. (I tend to think that this is why the other characters are 'forgiven' by fans.) But too often she's the focus and I don't feel sold on why. It's all the attention on her and her issues that annoys me. There are other people on this show, too.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

Those are the same issues I have with Gwen. :) I've been discussing this with a couple of other people, and they also agree.

That right there is the whole reason I'm desperately trying to get other people in on the scene to try and redeem her character in my eyes! ^_^

[halfspokenwords.livejournal.com]

I'm strangely glad to hear it. :) Sorry to have hijacked your post and not helped with your Gwen issues.

And thank you for that! I too have been reading everyone's comments and trying to keep an open mind. So far I've not been convinced, but I have been giving more thought to the reasons why she doesn't 'click' for me and that's always a good thing. I'm also impressed that a discussion post like this (and your other) has stayed so remarkably civil.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

Sorry to have hijacked your post and not helped with your Gwen issues.

Oh, pftfh, not to worry. :) Any views are welcome, and it's nice to know that other people share my doubts and can articulate them better than I can. ;)

I've got a Gwenfic in mind, now, thanks to the discussion here, so it's worked out well enough thus far. I'm not convinced either, though, so it's set early in the series, when she still has credibility! :D

I'm also quite pleaseed with the levels of civility being maintained around here, though I haven't really had a chance to go through and debate properly with the Jack/Gwen people, so it may yet go horribly wrong... ^_^'

[laligin.livejournal.com]

(And clearly, that was meant to be "pleased" but the button got stuck. That'll teach me to check more carefully before I post. ^_^')

[jadesfire2808.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure about Jack/Gwen (the dynamic is a bit too brother/sister for me to be comfortable with it) but some vigourous Gwen-defence went on over at torchwood_meta when we held our character discussion.

Therefore, since I'm supposed to be dissertationing, not Torchwooding, I shall helpfully supply this link (http://community.livejournal.com/torchwood_meta/1129.html)> :D

[laligin.livejournal.com]

That's the view I have of Jack/Gwen, too. :)

And thank you most kindly for the link. That's very useful indeed. ^_^

[ladykathryn.livejournal.com]

Gwen can be a hard character to like, but it's not impossible - you just need to understand that she's not in any way intended to be perfect. I think of Gwen as the mary sue we'd all write if we were being honest with ourselves - she's sometimes irritating, nosy, prone to lying, can't let anything go, can't work her way out of a sticky situation, doesn't know how to cook, has a gigantic gap between her teeth and a shaggy haircut and a relatively big butt and no fashion sense, is headstrong and occasionally has poor impulse control, decides to hop into bed with Owen when Jack is RIGHT THERE DAMMIT (ignoring Rhys here because I don't like him), says SHIT when big scary monsters are coming and pukes at the sight of dead bodies. She also, though, has a lot of Velma about her; she has to know the answer to every thing and is good at figuring things out. And of course, as has been hammered into our heads from the first episode, she really, honestly cares about people and is willing to do about anything to protect them. Gwen isn't a vital part of the team because she's so normal, like they keep pushing at us - she's a vital part of the team because without her, they'd be holed up under a water tower dinking alien iPods while the world was ending instead of out doing something useful for the human race.

[ladykathryn.livejournal.com]

p.s. I <3 Owen, but even I have to admit it's an illogical choice.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

^_^ I've developed a strange fondness for Owen myself. But really, with Jack and Ianto in the running as well...? Gwen's a nutcase. It's the only explanation. :)

[laligin.livejournal.com]

I can quite understand she's not meant to be perfect - clearly, none of them are. I did like her curiosity and that drive to find out the truth (that's probably what made her a good PC) that she shows in a few of the episodes. That is kind of a point in her favour, though it does get warped and backfires a bit as the series goes on. (For example, bringing Suzie back to find out what really happened - and being so stubborn about it she nearly got herself killed.) She doesn't seem to know when to stop.

And she seems to care about people in a general sense, rather than specifically. Actions speak louder than words, and while she's all for kicking Torchwood out of the Hub to do some good in the world, when it comes to her own deeds, she hurts everyone close to her. Rhys in particular - the individuals in team Torchwood as well (even Owen). If she's meant to be the audience's gateway to Torchwood, and the normal, everyday character, I'd prefer her to show a bit more of the compassion she's meant to possess. As it stands she ends up looking a bit hypocritical.

She appears to have slid very rapidly down the slippery slope that is Torchwood - in trying to help them, she's very much lost her own way, and become worse (in some ways) than those she condemned so easily early on.

*mournful sigh* You see, I view Gwen as a kind of tragedy - she could have been so very good for Torchwood. It's difficult to convince me that she was worth all the trouble she's brought them.

Most of the good points people mention are really things that apply to Gwen at the start of series one. I can't help thinking she's lost most of them by the end of it...

Anyway, sorry, I've gone maudlin now. Thanks for your comments - you do have some valid points that I shall have to devote more time to considering. :)

[shadowhwk.livejournal.com]

I'm so new to fandom that I'm still a little taken aback by the aversion to Gwen, personally, though obviously it exists. And I'm not saying "OMG how can you NOT like Gwen?!" I just don't understand what makes her so irritating/offensive/disliked, I suppose.

So hi. I like Gwen. And here's why:

1) Yes, she's the Everyman character as someone else said. Her main purpose is to introduce us, the viewers, to what Torchwood does, how they do it, the things they get into. Without her, there would be no reason to explain -anything- because the characters would all know how everything worked. There would have been no need to explain the glove, for instance, because they'd all seen Suzie use it. There'd have been no reason to explain the weevils, because they all knew what they were and where they came from, etc. We would very likely not have been given that first tour of the hub with her, because Jack already knows everything that's there and he certainly wouldn't to lead, oh, Tosh around, telling her how all the stuff she already knows works.

2) Tied into that, she is meant to react the way we would react, if we were thrust into Torchwood suddenly. While we all may think that we'd handle the sudden undeniable knowledge that there are real aliens out there better than Gwen does, I really don't think most people would. I think most of us *would* puke at stumbling over those bodies in Countrycide. I think most of us *would* stand and gape at a weevil or a glowing alien girl or the faeries hopping around in someone's back yard.

3) She's not perfect. She lies almost from the moment she learns about Torchwood, to Rhys, and she's -good- at it. It's easy for her. She has an affair with Owen because she can't handle not having someone who understands what's going on at work. She's really, when you boil her down, replaced Suzie almost completely. The glove, Owen, the inability to cope on her own...and yet I haven't seen anyone saying how they don't like Suzie. It's odd. :) I'm fairly certain that she was just as flawed as Gwen, and more so, given the elaborate plan that's discovered in They Keep Killing Suzie.

4) She -is- the human, compassionate part of Torchwood. She does make them consider the people first. Let's face it, the rest of them are not particularly aware of the people aspect most of the time. Tosh is removed and very reserved, Owen has his perpetual coat of I don't care, Ianto has his own issues (which are hard to name, given that I think his character as written has wild personality changes). Even Jack forgets how to handle the human side of things sometimes, so they really do need her perspective and her ability to connect with the people involved, rather than treating everything just as a case. If that makes sense.

And. That's enough rambling for one comment.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

:) Hilo there, and I do hope you haven't been too put of the TW fandom by the raging wars between Gwen fans/Gwen haters and various other shippers/character supporters. It is a bit mad, really.

I liked Gwen to start with, and I try not to get drawn in to the fighting and hatred that seems to surround her (hence this post, to help me understand both sides better), but as the series went on I lost a lot of my liking for her character. It seemed she was always the main focus of attention (when for one thing, there's a lovely ensemble cast, and for another I was led to believe it was Jack's show!) and usually ended up being either the damsel in distress, or the catalyst for the beginning or end of a plotline. It started to annoy me that we never saw much of anyone else. (Tosh and Ianto got one episode each. Jack got one that was really his, Owen got maybe two (at a great stretch, three) that were about him. Gwen seemed to get all the rest.) And yet the other characters of Team Torchwood all have secrets and mystery for us to explore... Gwen has a normal life with very little to uncover until she starts keeping secrets from Rhys - but we already know all her secrets. (Unless she turns out to be a Time Agent and it's all a ruse... :) )

That's the basic rundown of why I think Gwen grew to be so disliked. Now I get to answer your points in order. :) (Please, no offence intended - I'm just trying to sort out everyone's reasons and explain why I don't follow that particular line of thought, so that you or anyone else can come back with some new reasons to like her. Hopefully ones I'll have to agree with.)

1. I've been thinking about the introduction of Torchwood, actually, and wondering if it would have worked had we (for example) simply followed one of the others to work one day. And I think the audience is smart enough to pick up on what's not explicitly explained - we all knew what Suzie had done the first time we saw the glove in action, right at the beginning of episode one. We didn't really need anyone to tell us, "Yep, that thing brings people back from the dead for a limited time." We saw that. If the camera followed any one of the team on their daily routine (Ianto would be most useful, as he wanders all areas of the Hub) we get a tour as we go. Not that much is actually explained to Gwen (Jack says they don't even know where the Weevils come from. All the audience needs to know is that they're alien, dangerous, and apparently not of a high level of intelligence - and that can be shown in the same way it was originally, by one being captured) apart from the team's individual roles. And that, I argue, could easily be shown. Maybe it's throwing the viewer in at the deep end, but plenty of other shows do that, and people cope. For that purpose, then, Gwen isn't strictly necessary - she's simply one form of introduction, when there are others (arguably more unusual/interesting) available.

2. This one, I agree. You're right. Generally speaking, her reactions are what most people's would be. In the beginning of the series, at least.


(More in the next comment - I seem to have written you an essay in return! Sorry about that. ^_^')

[laligin.livejournal.com]

3. No, she's not perfect. She lies so casually to Rhys that we get the impression she's been doing this some time. She then complains about having no-one to talk to, despite the fact that she clearly doesn't trust Rhys enough to tell him anything, so what does she expect? I found her stated reasons for sleeping with Owen shallow and irritating. She claims to have no-one to talk to, no-one who understands work etc, and yet (to use other sources) in an interview, JB said that "Jack's the only one Gwen talks to". So she's sleeping with Owen for what now?
The thing with Suzie is that she's painted as a megolamaniacal villain, really. Therefore, her flaws are expected, because they contribute to her descent into madness and murder. Gwen is meant to be our beloved heroine, yet she displays every sign of going exactly the same way as Suzie, only quicker. Why are we meant to feel sympathy (and empathy, scarily) for one and yet be happy when the other is killed? It doesn't quite make sense to me.

4. In the beginning of the series, yes, Gwen brings a much needed humanity to Torchwood. Jack, Owen and Tosh had perhaps become too mired in the work to remember the importance of individuals as well as the idea of "saving the world". Ianto was quite the opposite - so caught up with saving one individual that he didn't have any time left to care about anyone else. But they're not all that bad. Tosh's enthusiasm when she talks to Mary about various aspects of working for Torchwood also encompasses things like letters from an alien to his family - and if we add in the official site, she explores various ways of saying "I love you" with symbols as she tries to understand an alien language. She's far from removed and reserved in those instances - most of the time she just seems to be too shy to show this side of her.
Gwen's perspective and "ability to connect with the people involved" did come in useful, and was something they needed reminding of. But in an organisation that deals with all sorts of horrific cases, that could also be a weakness. They have to maintain some sort of professional distance to avoid getting too caught up in things (see Owen in Ghost Machine) and to be able to make rational decisions - not everything can be solved by being emotive and following your heart. Everything in moderation, and Gwen may well take things just that little bit too far...

You have some points I agree with, and I can kind of see why some people like her for all that, but I'm still not converted. Like quite a few of the arguments I've seen so far, this seems to rely on early-series events, and I'm not too sure that everything still applies to Gwen by the end of it all...

Thank you for your lovely long comment, anyway. And you have helped make it a little clearer why some people like her so much - even if I haven't bought into it just yet. :)

[shadowhwk.livejournal.com]

And yet I continue. Feel free to tell me to knock it off.

Re #3: A couple of things.

I think that watching Gwen head down the same path Suzie took is not supposed to be hypocritical, in the yay, Suzie's dead/oh poor Gwen sense. I think it's actually supposed to make us feel *more* empathy for Suzie and understand her motivation more, given that Gwen appears warped by the same responsibilities *so quickly*. Like saying, look, if this ordinary woman who's only been on the team X short amount of time is having trouble flying right, can you *imagine* what someone who'd been second-in-command (and using the glove) for *years* would have gone through? The real question is whether Gwen can pull herself back from the brink like Suzie couldn't. And I find that really fascinating to watch.

As far as Owen vs. Jack and "talking" to them. I think it's true that the only one Gwen *talks* to is Jack. I think Owen and Gwen when they're together, pre or post sex, probably vent, bitch, gripe, whatever. But I don't get the sense that they really sit down and have meaningful discussion like Gwen does with Jack. They're different sorts of relationships and she seems, to me, to value them very differently. I'm not sure, for instance, that if it were Owen who could come back from the dead, that Gwen would have spent three days waiting for him, because they don't have that sort of connection. If that makes sense.

Re #4: I think you're right. I think she *is* (or was) too involved and too emotional. I think that's a lot of the reason why she changes throughout the course of the series (and, frankly, why people find themselves disliking her in later episodes). Because she does get worked up and involved and compassionate about these cases and that sort of committment, constantly, will run you ragged and wear you down, unless you learn how now to care so deeply. But teaching yourself to detach and not care when that's not your natural state, so to speak, means that you're going to make huge, messy mistakes, screw up with people you really *do* care about (i.e. Rhys) because you haven't figured out where the line between engaged/detached is, and you're going to fall and have to pick yourself up a lot.

[shadowhwk.livejournal.com]

Hi back! Nah, I haven't been chased off yet.

Hm. I can understand why you thought it was going to be Jack's show, given that he's the cross-over character, the one we already know, etc. It would make sense that he's the one who drives the action, since he's the one we theoretically care about.

But he's not one of us, if you know what I mean? Obviously RTD and the BBC were counting on DW fandom to help carry the show to success, as not all of the things in TW make sense to someone who never saw DW (am I using enough initials? Sorry!), but if you're looking to *build* your viewership, not just have one core group of viewers carry two shows, which could in theory diminish the audience for each, then there has to be something that will draw in people who *don't* know the world too.

And that pretty much means you need an accessible, understandable character. We think, as fans of the universe, that Jack is accessible because we know him, we've seen him in action, but to someone brand new to the franchise, he's another time traveling "alien".

So yes, for someone familiar with the concept of the show, maybe following Owen or Ianto or even Jack himself into work and figuring out what they do day to day based on clues and the character's familiarity with the creatures/gizmos/etc. would work for one of us. Not so much for Joe Average.

Please note, I'm not trying to say that viewers are stupid, but that that's the way TV works. In the 60s, when Star Trek first aired, they could very well have given us Spock as a primary POV character. Instead, they gave us Kirk who, despite being a man from the future, is human, for example. Viewers didn't, then, have to work on figuring out both the world *and* how to relate to the green dude with pointy ears.

Shows that do "throw the viewer in at the deep end" tend not to do very well. And by deep end, *I* mean (to make it clear that I'm not saying this is what you meant), headlong into a world not only full of exciting, actiony things happening, but also with new rules to the world itself. The example I give for this one?

Firefly. I don't know if you watched it or were a fan, but that's a show that was ensemble. There was no introductory character. Viewers were expected to leap into the story and buy into wholesale. Yes, they were introduced to the characters and how they arrived on board, but there was no one character who could learn with them and be guided through this new universe. Even Simon, the most fish-out-of-water character on the ship still grew up in this odd (for us) world and understood rules that we the viewers knew nothing about.

...wow. Spam. But I hope that makes sense.

[(Anonymous)]

Gwen is human. That is basically it. You call her shallow and selfish, but she has made mistakes like a lot of people. Nobody's perfect.

She brings heart and emotion into Torchwood and into Jack, which is why is another reason that dynamic works so much. She makes Jack want to live again in the same way Rose made the Doctor want to live.

Personally myself, I didn't like the Owen thing. But I think it happened because she was a bit disallusioned with Jack at the time. Well, in Countrycide he burst into that barn and went Terminator on those people.

Plus, I think Owen went after because he knew Jack was interested and it was part of some daft rivalry thing on Owen's part.

Those are just my thoughts.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

Gwen is human. That is basically it. You call her shallow and selfish, but she has made mistakes like a lot of people. Nobody's perfect.

True, but if she's not exceptional, why does Torchwood need her? (And the whole heart and emotion thing is all very well up to episode 3 - beyond that it's kind of shown that she's not doing all that well at making everyone compassionate and understanding, nor at even holding up that side of herself...)

And no, nobody's perfect. But not everybody ends up cheating on their boyfriend for very little apparent reason, misusing their access to mind-altering drugs, taking a known murderer for a joyride and setting a demon loose on Cardiff. And yet she faces no consequences...?

Your reasons (much like everyone else's, I hasten to add) for liking her seem to stem from the first half of the series - up to about episode 5, which was when I still liked her too. After that, though, she ruins it a little bit. Nobody points out any of her actions from then onwards as being reasons to like her...

[miss-harper01.livejournal.com]

Gwen is the heart of the torchwood team, she is the spirit. Jack sees that in her and likes it. Personally i think that jack and gwen make a cute couple because they balance eachother out. Jack is the harsher side and more secretive where as Gwen is down to earth and caring, not that i'm saying Jack isn't caring, but Gwen is more.

If you don't agree with me that's fine but that's my opinion.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your comments. :)

But I'm getting a lot of the "Gwen is the heart of Torchwood" - and that's something the creators of the show keep telling us, though we don't really see it - and I can understand why you'd say that, if you look at the first three episodes. Beyond that she stops playing that role. She preaches to them occasionally, but she fails to practice her own compassion etc, and her actions very much betray her words.

I'm intrigued as to why people continue to like her even when she starts slipping. Can you give me more reasons from later on in the series? :)

[miss-harper01.livejournal.com]

i also like Gwen because she doesn't take any shit from any of the team, she will fight her corner no matter what and she will always do what she thinks is right

[laligin.livejournal.com]

I can kind of see that being an admirable point - except that it backfires on her so much.

The only member of the team who really gives her any trouble is Owen - and she sleeps with him, rather than "not taking any shit"... By doing that she gives him (and Jack) far more ammunition to use against her. It's this point that drives her in the last couple of episodes - I do think that it's partly guilt that makes her so desperate to bring Rhys back, and she prevents Jack from stopping them opening the Rift when he mentions the whole Owen business. That's her not putting up with being insulted - Gwen chooses to smack him rather than admit he has a point...

And her always fighting for what she thinks is right is all very well if she's right - if she's wrong (for example, Suzie) then she appears stubborn and foolish. She seems less open to other people's ideas and opinions, and more convinced that she knows best, even though she's still new to Torchwood.

Beyond the second episode, I can't help finding these traits of hers to be increasingly negative instead of the positive things they were to begin with...

[mimarie.livejournal.com]

I've argued my case for liking Gwen elsewhere - too many times! (if you're interested, for instance - jade's link above) but could you convince *me* what's so good about Ianto? (Not that I'm picking on you as an advocate of 'Ianto can do no wrong', but as you're asking...;) I'd love to be able to see what so many see in him. I've read some good stories with him in, but *nothing* that's made me understand why he's so amazingly popular. (BTW, GDL looks very much like my obnoxious 19 year-old nephew, looks will not sway me!)

[(Anonymous)]

I like Ianto as I can understand his actions more than the others - i probably would have done something like what he did with Lisa if I lost everybody i worked with and then I found the person I loved half converted. I can understand the passion of it. It may actually the way GDL plays it I do like the characters he plays (apart from the guy in Mine All Mine he was mean!).

I like his snarkyness - he's funny.

I'm don't really ship jack/Ianto I certainly don't want to see them as an in love forever ship - but I can read the fics there I love tanarians stuff. I think Ianto neds someone outside of torchwood as I think Torchwood and The Battle have crushed him - he needs to heal outside of Torchwood with someone away from them all.


Gwen - I dont like her as I find her ver self involved, if she is meant to have all this compassion how can she be as insensitive as she is. She was always asking questions which to me felt poorly worded at best and cruel at worst. Its been said again and again about her question about who was the last person you snogged seemed as an excuse to rub in everyones faces she has a boyfriend.

She lied to Rhys when she was still with the Police like it was nothing, there seemed to be no reason for it and then to complain after joining Torchwood that she has no-one to talk to because she can't tell Rhys anything is a lie as I dont think she would have ever told him if she could.
I think she treated Owen unfairly in Combat - he was hurting and yes he unfarly lashed out but then it all became about her and how that made her feel.

But you know what I have a suspicion it might all be about the fact that we always she her as the main focus of the show and as I like the other characters more than her it irriatates me.

but everyone always saya its only fandom that have my reaction to her but I know alot of people who have no idea about the internet Journals and dislike her character as they find her iritating.

Sorry that turned into a huge essay which it wasnt meant to be!

[mimarie.livejournal.com]

I liked that Ianto was passionate about saving the woman he loved (I thought he looked scarily like Beaker when he was crying over her, but it's his face and there's nothing I can do about that). Yes, he has a certain dry wit, and yes, he could do with getting a life outside work. But that's a couple of factors, maybe ten minutes screen time? And I still don't *understand*...

As for Gwen... I think a lot of it is down to personal interpretation, and like you said about Ianto, indentification with a character. Maybe it's that I can identify with Gwen that I like her. And I don't mean that I like or approve of all her actions, but I don't see any of them as incomprehensible, given the circumstances.

I saw her as thoughtless with the snogging question, trying to find a way of getting them talking - and it sure as hell backfired on her, wouldn't you say! I don't have a problem with anyone disliking her for being a liar - so long as we can also acknowledge all the other lying that everyone else does.

I think Combat was about more than how Owen lashing out at Gwen made her feel. She's been utterly slammed for retconning Rhys, whereas if you look at it from another direction, both hers and Owen's actions were self-destructive: his to his life, hers to her self-respect and the relationship that grounded her. I didn't like what she did, but I could *understand* it. She was weak, she wanted something to hold on to, and to feel somehow - *any*how - that she was forgiven for hurting the man she loved but was growing apart from rapidly.

More than anything, I don't feel that Gwen's there to add sympathy, or compassion, she's a cleverly drawn character, with real motivations and reactions, she's *interesting* and considering how much time we spend (as TW fandom) discussing /defending/ excoriating her and her actions, I think the writers should be proud. She works. Personally, I think TW would be a lot duller without her than it would without Ianto. I'm just hoping that in S2 he gets more of a personality, and that we get to see more of Tosh. And *lots* of Gwen.

[(Anonymous)]

I think the point we both made about identufying with a character is what its about here I just cant stand her after about episodes 3-5 she just realy started to get on my tits!!

I'd love to see more Tosh and Ianto (as has already been mentioned in the fandom that if Ianto wasnt meant to last the series an tey changed their minds then that would explain why we saw so little of him but then Tosh seemed under used as well).

[harem-ent.livejournal.com]

Slightly late but...

Gwen is sucky.

That's it mainly.

hehe

[laligin.livejournal.com]

:P Evil.

^_^