So explain to me... (Part two)

[laligin]

This is mostly because I'm intrigued and vaguely confused, so I'm asking you lot to help me out.

Explain to me, please, as politely as you can manage (I'm not here for a fight), exactly why you ship Jack/Gwen. Why do you think it works?

See, it doesn't work for me. I'll happily acquiesce to the suggestion of Jack/Ianto, Jack/Tosh, Ianto/Tosh, maybe even Owen/Ianto at a stretch, and every canon pairing that's even danced past is understandable... But Jack/Gwen I have real trouble with (I'm of the firm opinion that they have a very strong friendship and nothing more), and I want to understand why people ship them together.

So tell me. Try and convert me. I'm a multi-ship shipper (honest!) and stranger things have happened. (Can't think of any right now, but I'm sure they have...)

(Also, convince me Gwen is a good character.)

Comments

[cyberamanda.livejournal.com]

Nooooooooooooooooo!
Don't Do It!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D

[laligin.livejournal.com]

:D I didn't say I would be converted... Just that people can try. :)

(I'm a die-hard Jantolution ficcer when it comes down to it, really... have no fear I shall desert that particular area... ;) But I think I understand how to make just about any other ship work plausibly. Apart from Jack/Gwen. It bothers me.)

[cyberamanda.livejournal.com]

For me, it's cliched, it's an obvious pairing and it would change Jack, because he would have to change his outlook on relationships if he was with Gwen. Gwen fawns, their personalities are too similar in some ways and I think they work too well as 'best friends'. I just don't see the chemistry either. Just my opinion. I know others see things differently.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

:) Ah, the divides of fandom. As it stands, I'm with you all the way. Beyond episode 3 (gun training/watching the sunrise (oh my stars, the cliche there nearly killed me)) I don't think they have the right chemistry to go together. The initial interest dies away and they become friends...

(It may be tougher than first thought for anyone to convert me. ;) )

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

First off I want this explanation to be taken in the spirit that I am not and never will be a Jack/Gwen shipper and am not in favor of the pairing in the series. However, I can see where it comes from and some possible "benefits."

All right, well first of all the two lead characters becoming an item is an old classic in television. They start off friends, become close friends, confide in each other, and something blossoms after 3 or a zillion seasons. So, the idea is there for Jack and Gwen already if we are going to classic route. Of course, to some that archetype pairing is over done (I tend to agree with that) so they have to have more backing than just 'they are both the leads.'

Off the bat we can see that Jack admires Gwen for her compassion. He is drawn to it and at first he wants to protect her. He cares about her a lot and through the season we can see how strongly he reacts when she is hurt or upset (Countrycide, End of Days) which I feel is a bit more so than how he reacts to any of the others being hurt in any way. Granted this reaction to her pain could be that when the others were hurt this season it was their own faults in most cases and also Gwen is new so he is less use to seeing her in any sort of pain while he has probably seen the others hurt in some way before.

Through the season there have been many 'romantic' type moments between Jack and Gwen (When they are standing by the bay at the end of Ghost Machine, that slow music moment after they return to the hub in TKKS, her giving him the kiss at the end of End of Days along with her vigil). So, the audience is being given a picture of the two of them as already very close. He also tends to confide in Gwen through the season showing that he trusts her judgment and ability to keep a secret (She was the only one who knew he couldn't die for awhile there).

Gwen herself obviously admires Jack as well but is also willing to question him. She doesn't loose faith in him even when he is wrong and she is the one who 'stand by him' so to speak at the completion of End of Days. I also think that to Jack Gwen is sort of a grounding factor. She was entrenched in life in that time there in Cardiff and could be something of an anchor for our wandering Jack. Who knows how this will be after his stint on Doctor Who.

Basically, at the moment their relationship is a close friendship however the writers seem to be setting it up for them to grow into more but its the kind of set up that is going to take some time and possible more disasters to bring them closer together. That is how i see it, hope it made some sort of sense.

[shadowhwk.livejournal.com]

its the kind of set up that is going to take some time and possible more disasters to bring them closer together.

This is exactly how I see it, too. I don't know that Jack/Gwen in the sex sense will ever happen. If it does, it's going to take more time than they've had together so far, I think. They do have a closeness, they do have a trust and an admiration that, I think, goes both ways.

Ultimately, I think what makes Jack and Gwen a possibility is that she doesn't -need- him. She likes him, I think she is probably a little in love with him, she may occasionally want him, but there's no compelling -need- to sleep with him. So many people, including the other members of his team, -do- need him, that I think she must be like a haven, a relief for him.

So I think that, if they come together, it's not going to be in some fit of hormones, but in a gradual drift together as they realize that they balance each other out.

[sunnyrea.livejournal.com]

Ultimately, I think what makes Jack and Gwen a possibility is that she doesn't -need- him. ooooo that is good, that is true, hadn't thought of that

[eternalwings.livejournal.com]

JUST SAY NO. ^^

[laligin.livejournal.com]

:D No! :P

[(Anonymous)]

I don't really know why I'm a Jack/Gwen shipper. It just sort of works for me. Personally, I do see the chemistry. It's been there right from the start. They like each other, care about each other and are attracted to each other.

I'm not saying they should get together right away. What I like is the possibility that they might, the chemistry, lingering looks, hints that there are feelings there. Like with the Doctor and Rose.

That probably wasn't much help. I just thought I'd put in my two pence worth.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

What I like is the possibility that they might, the chemistry, lingering looks, hints that there are feelings there. Like with the Doctor and Rose.

That helps a lot, thanks. :) I can kind of see the UST, but I'd like it to stay unresolved. I don't think they'd work together as a couple, and it would rather kill the show for me. Gwen's pushed to the front more than enough of already - putting her with Jack would further increase the idea that the whole show's about her (It's called "Torchwood" - it's about the whole team! And besides that, it was advertised and touted as being Jack's show first of all... *pout* ;) ) and reduce the chances of anyone else's character being explored properly. (Only Owen got much of a shot at that in series one, and I'd far rather see more episodes of Tosh, for example.)



But friends with a bit of flirting, knowing it's never going to happen...? That could work. I could manage to understand and write that without wanting to shred my notebook for being untrue to canon. :) Thanks.

[mimarie.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I'd dare try and convert you - after all, I'm pretty sure there's something going on between Jack and Ianto, but all the same, I don't ship them. I don't think there's a *relationship* between them in the same way as I see one between Jack and Gwen.

'We' (as a fandom anywhere concerning Jack) always seem happy to accept that Jack does relationships a bit differently, that he doesn't necessarily tie love and sex together in the same way as 'our quaint little categories' would seem to insist we do. And so, for me, the idea that he can care deeply for one person and sleep with another (few)... nope, no problem with that.

I don't really understand what the aversion to them being together is as such. It's been made pretty clear since the beginning that however much Gwen may care for Rhys, she's always been somewhat dishonest with him. I always thought he was purposely drawn as dull - caring and thoughtful and worthy - but dull, and ultimately someone she would be drawn away from by her new life. Jack's the embodiment of that new life. And she's obviously drawn to him (Everything Changes, Day One, Ghost Machine, EOD) and he cares for her (TKKS, Countrycide - really, you don't think that look at Owen in the kitchen when she's been shot is jealous?)

Having said that - I don't see them falling into each others' arms in canon, not right now. It feels like love being built there, not 'merely' attraction (but then, I'm in the middle of an AU that wasn't hitting J/G like that at all, and now seems to have wandered that way all of its own accord...) and as we've already been given a good background in Jack's affinity for anything with said hole and postcode, to build a relationship with someone he's *not* sleeping with may well prove more stable and lasting - if such a thing is possible for him!

BUT - there's no point trying to write something you can't believe - if Jack/Gwen doesn't happen for you then really, thanks for trying and not just dismissing the idea, but stick to what feels right! (And I shall continue to shout noo! at my monitor every time some one suggests the Jack wuvs Ianto for eva and eva...;)

[(Anonymous)]

Can I shout 'noo' at my monitor too. Because I'm with you about Jack/Ianto. I don't really see it as a big romance. Even RTD himself has said it isn't.

[beguiled-child.livejournal.com]

I ship quite a few fandoms. Mainly I'm a Jack/Ianto shipper, but this is probably because there is just so much of it around, 90% of fanfics seem to have that pairing in them. I also quite like the idea of Jack/Gwen as well, and I like to remember what’s true cannon, that is why I don't think at the moment they are head over heels IN love with each other, nor would I encourage anyone else to think that. However, everyone can see there is an incredibly close relationship there, I'd go as far to say it is the closest relationship in the Torchwood institution (yes that's including Jack/Ianto) and it’s not entirely platonic.

I personally believe that below that deep friendship there is a little bit of sexual tension and romantic feelings bubbling underneath the surface (I’d even say the same for Jack/Doctor), look at the series and there are many moments which strongly imply this, e.g: the kiss in ep 2 (most importantly Jack's face after the kiss, this says even more than the actual kiss itself), then the incredibly tense and sexual gun scene in ep 3, Jack's jealous look at Owen in ep 6, gazing at each other in ep 8 with the song playing "going to love you to till the sea's run dry, I've found the one I've waited for". On top of this Gwen is often the one he willingly confides in, nurtures the most, protects etc. She's an attractive woman, fiery and challenging, but also follows and trusts him, she's new and she is often (or at least in the beginning) a stable, grounding and compassionate force, so it makes perfect sense for Jack to feel a little more than platonically towards her, in fact I’d say it’s kind of out of character to think of such a woman purely as a sister like figure!
In return I think Gwen clearly admires him, trusts him and thinks the world of him, I think it's likely that she at least has a little crush on him (I mean who wouldn't?!). She's completely taken in by Torchwood and Jack is just the classic, charming, spell bounding hero who she’s just a little bit intoxicated by. He’s not Owen or Rhys, in my honest opinion he often seems like the best mix between the two, e.g. he’s nice and comforting like Rhys but exciting and wild and sexual like Owen. She hasn’t done anything about it by now, nor will she very quickly, because Jack is kind of untouchable to her in that way, he is the boss and she probably realizes how fragile and screwed up he can be sometimes.

I don't believe we'll see them getting married and having babies anytime soon, I'd hate to see that anyway (I think everyone would), I ship Jack/Gwen when Rhys is out of the picture, neither seduces the other one, but it is instead a build up of feelings that neither of them can hide after a long while. I think if Gwen and Jack do get together then that is how it'll be, and how I'd want it to be as well. Eve Myles said something about there being love there between, and it being the 'real thing'. I'm not sure exactly what this means but now it wouldn’t surprise me if eventually it does grow into more than just a friendship between the two.

Right now the popular pairing is Jack/Ianto. But I simply don't believe Jack loving or feeling very deeply towards Ianto is cannon (at least no more than he loves the rest of his team). John Barrowman has described Ianto as Jack's boytoy, and to be honest there's nothing really to suggest otherwise. Happy endings with the two of them are in fanfic but unfortunately I don’t see it happening in the show, in fact I suspect there'll be a lack of Jack/Ianto in season 2 because the cast/creators don’t seem to be aware how big it is online.

[harem-ent.livejournal.com]

You wouldn't.

Jack/Gwen = LIES!

I hope you don't mind I just comment to express my dislkike of Gwen. I don't hate her, I just wouldn't give her my last choclate bar.

[laligin.livejournal.com]

*nod*

Can I share that chocolate bar, then? :) *smiles winningly*

[harem-ent.livejournal.com]

Of course you can share my chocolate bar, as long as you are not Gwen. You're not Gwen are you? *narrows eyes*

[zeffy-amethyst.livejournal.com]

I only watched this show...yesterday? And I wasn't sold on the Jack/Gwen. Then again, I wasn't sold on the Jack/Ianto. I see the attraction of both pairings but I don't know if I really truly believe in them.

Jack/Gwen is more of a soulmate thing. They are attracted to one another on a deeper level. They're more than friends, and more than lovers. They understand each other in a way the others don't. Jack loves the innocence of Gwen but he's afraid of corrupting her. And Gwen loves the wild nature of Jack but she's afraid of being lost in it. All those emotions but sexually? No. It's entirely possibly to seperate love from sex and Jack knows that. I think he'd be happy being in love with Gwen without being physically intimate with her. And the whole immortality thing puts a huge kink in the plans. It'd end up being like Jack/Estelle all over again.

Jack/Ianto is the opposite. Sex but no deep emotions. No matter how fandom likes to portray it. They do like screwing each other but it's stress relief (NOT true love). Angry, angsty, fearful sex that they need but don't ultimately want. However, going by EoD and CJH it would appear that there is some level of loyalty and affection on Ianto's part that isn't being reciprocated, or at least it's not an equal reciprocation. I wonder if Jack chose Ianto because he doesn't want to corrupt Tosh and Gwen, and because he thinks Owen's too...immature.

It's purely hypothetical but I think Jack keeps Ianto around out of distrust as much as anything (especially after Cyberwoman). Ianto is Torchwood One, dedicated to people and ideals Jack doesn't trust, and while it seems like Ianto thinks for himself (Hello Lisa!) it needs to be remembered that he was TW1 first and TW3 second. And if I was Jack I'd be wary of letting someone like that into my posse.

I'm hoping the second season will explain more. But right now I can't see Jack/Gwen as a pairing. And I can't see Jack/Ianto beyond the sex. But hey, just one voice among many and I hope others can argue with me and tell me I'm wrong. ^_^

[laligin.livejournal.com]

To go for the simplest response: I agree!

Much as I'd like Jack/Ianto to have a happy ending, I really don't think it's going to last forever and the like. I do think Jack cares about Ianto, a lot, but I'm of the opinion that he loves all of his team in that kind of way, even Owen.

And I'm perfectly happy with Jack and Gwen loving each other to pieces as long as they don't decide they are each other's one true love and must therefore get married, have kids and all that jazz. That's just not the way it works for me. Again, Jack cares but he's not crazy in love with her.

Aheh. Thanks for your comment, anyway, it's always nice to see more views. From what I got in these two debate posts of mine, I'm willing to have a go at writing Gwen in a sympathetic light now (Gwen gen-fic. :) Lovely). I'm still not really getting Jack/Gwen, though I might be able to warp my mind further than it's already gone and write it vaguely plausibly, whether I believe it or not...

So yeah, thanks. It helped. :)